Passive Learning = Anxiety

0:00
Brian:

I just wanted to get your background, what kind of lifestyle you had, any particular struggles that you went through, any challenging circumstances, and study tools that you used, strategies for actually studying for all these different portions of the exam.

Emotional ups and downs.

I think it’s important to recognize and call out those strong emotions that people feel during this process.

So that’s kind of the overview of what I would like to talk about, if that’s okay with you?

0:23
Joe:

So I worked between undergrad and law school for about five years.

So, I was (not the most) definitely not the oldest in my law school class, but not the most traditional student.

I’d say people are either KJD, or they take two to three years off.

So I was a bit longer than that.

This was July 24 was my first attempt at the bar exam.

I found that being slightly older, both in law school and studying for the bar at least, gave me the time management skills to sort of treat it like a full time job.

0:56
Brian:

But you didn’t have a full time job separate, or did you?

0:59
Joe:

No, I ended my job in 2021 right before law school, and then just went as a traditional law school student the whole way through for three years.

1:07
Brian:

Okay, so you just graduated, just took the bar, and then you passed it, one and done?


1:10
Joe:

Thankfully, because I don’t know what I would have done. (Laughs)

1:15
Brian:

I mean, well, it’s not that uncommon for people to retake the exam.

Deal with a lot of them, as you might know.

But yeah, of course, it’s great that you passed it.

It’s always great to just get it done once, and then you don’t have to think about it anymore.

Do you have a job lined up?

Or what are your plans going forward?

1:29:
Joe:

Yeah, I’m working at a firm right now.

1:31
Brian:

Okay, great.

Everything just turned out the way you expected, or you hoped for. I guess.

1:35
Joe:

I guess I’m very lucky that it turned out the way I hoped.

But I don’t think it’s by sheer luck.

I think it took finding things like your materials and not just doing Themis that got me.

1:45
Brian:

Okay, tell me more about that.

It sounds like you signed up for Themis initially, and then it sounded like there was something switch that happened.

1:51
Joe:

Yeah, I had the fortune of having Themis paid for by my firm, which was very, very helpful.

And I also had not taken as many bar courses in law school.

I think I over or underestimated what the bar would be when I was a 2L and a 3L.
I thought,

Okay, Wills and Trusts, I’m not going to take that class,

Remedies I’m not going to take.

My Evidence Class was at 7:30 in the morning.

It was my worst class in Law School.

I definitely should have paid more attention.

So, I began with Themis’ recommended schedule.

And in the beginning, it was good to watch the video to remember the rules.

But when I got to contracts and torts, which I had taken and done well in.

I found myself actually getting a little anxious, because I was like,

Why am I watching these lectures?

What’s actually the bar like?

I want to know what the bar is like.

I started getting a little skeptical with Themis, but then they brought in Evidence.

And I really didn’t do well in Evidence, so I really paid attention during those lectures.

And then Wills and Trusts and Remedies and Community Property.

I was learning for the first time.

So I found it helpful there.

And then there were things like my Contracts professor didn’t really teach us the UCC.

Which was crazy.

But the more and more I spent taking time to do the so-called passive learning on Themis, the more anxious.

I felt that I wasn’t doing enough.

Then I decided to kind of explore more resources to get more practice.

And I looked into Mary Basick’s essay book on your website, which you had recommended your own materials, plus her book.

And I found that once I was doing more questions in UWorld and even Themis questions, that I was retaining these rules that I had in learning law school so much better.

I sat through the Wills and Trusts lecture.

But having not taken that in school and having never been tested on it.

I didn’t feel that I got the flow of how to write that essay and do those rules until I really, like, buckled down and then so probably halfway through, maybe a little more than halfway through.

I decided to keep Themis in the background and look at what they had suggested for the day.

But I did way more tailoring of my own schedule.

4:03
Brian:

So did you continue using Themis as you added on these other?
 
4:07
Joe:

I did Themis in sort of a self-study way.

So I completed 80% of their material, but I didn’t follow their recommended study schedule.

So I completed all the multiple choice set.

All the UWorld set, most of the essays and practice PT.

But didn’t touch the outline, didn’t do the sort of like multiple choice questions that are not MBE style, that sort of stuff.

4:30
Brian:

Got it. So you used the course to learn the way that you needed to.

If you needed some practice in certain areas, you would look at Themis materials and their practice questions, and you would do them.

But you wouldn’t necessarily follow their schedule day by day.

4:44
Joe:

Yeah, I really used it as like a question bank.

Honestly, if it wasn’t free, I don’t think I would have used it.

I think I would have just used BarEssays or something.

I would have found another question bank, I guess.

4:55
Brian:

Okay, so why didn’t you use their outlines?

4:57
Joe:

I just gave my books away to someone who’s taking February exams,

So I don’t have them to show you.

But like, I think the maximum essay I ever made, and outline I ever made for myself in law school was like 30 pages of word.

And I thought that was ridiculous.

Most were way shorter than that.

And theirs are like hundreds of pages.

It’s too much to actually memorize and retain, and I think memorization is so important for the bar exam that it’s just impossible,

And you’re not going to know every rule.

And I felt that reading through those outlines, it just made me feel like I should know every rule, the important rules.

And the broader concept, it seemed like it wasn’t worthwhile.

And in the beginning, I experimented with things.

I tried making my own outlines, again, that was a waste of time.

I made flash cards every time I would get an MBE question wrong.

I would write down the rule if I didn’t know it.

And that happens a lot.

Like, I had stacks of flash cards so just some rules that I didn’t know.

And I never really went back and, like, looked through them and made sure I knew them.

But I found that just that act of writing it out right after I got done with an MBE question, man, I didn’t get that rule wrong.

6:05
Brian:

Okay, so you tried creating your own outline.

So that didn’t work for you, but actually creating the flash cards of the answers you got wrong, or the rules that you got wrong.

But then with the flash cards, when you were making them, the process of writing down, the rules that you got wrong; that helped you?

6:19
Joe:

Yeah, that helped a lot.

Example, like I didn’t learn about mortgages and property.

And seemingly it’s every question property I see, though, just writing down, it’s all left my mind now.

But just writing down one rule about mortgages, I would do another one,

And I’d be like, I wrote this down, like, I know this rule,

I think it’s this and then you can sift through it.

But I never used flashcards.

I guess, in the way that I had in the past, where you’re flipping through the stack and it’s like,

“Okay, what’s the rule about assignment and contracts here?”

Really, just to get it pen on paper and reinforce what I had missed.

6:53
Brian:

Yeah, and I even want to say that just the act of trying to solve questions so that you get those things wrong in the first place, so you could write those flashcards.

I think that act of getting things wrong, that’s actually the thing, got you to do all this and got you to try to remember it the next time you see it.

So this process, that this whole Themis you’re trying to learn more actively than trying to memorize words on a page, basically.

7:14
Joe:

Yeah, it’s amazing.

You start Themis and it says,

“Okay, day one, read these two outlines. That’s all you should do.”

I did that.

I listened to what they had to say.

Because I had never gone through this experience.

I didn’t know any better.

But I think if I had taken it again, I certainly would have just been trying to get as many things wrong as possible early on to reinforce what I didn’t know.

7:34
Brian:

Yeah, I think I actually love that sentiment, some people are just afraid to see wrong answers on their page, they rate themselves.

They get like, 40% of an MBE set, and that feels horrible at first.

But I just like the way you describe Themis.

I think it’s kind of insidious that for all that money that they charge, they don’t actually teach you how to learn.

They just kind of dump this information on you, and then there you go.

You just do something with that, and now you can pass.

7:56
Joe:

I don’t want to, like, sit here and disparage Themis.

I think it did help me tremendously, and it helped me understand what was going to be on the bar.

I think law schools are so different across the country that some of these commercial bar prep programs are actually very helpful in sort of teaching you consistency of what will be on the exam.

At the same time, had I known that there were other tools out there, like Mary Basick essay book and some other things.

I don’t know if I would have felt the value as much as I did.

Because I didn’t discover sort of alternative things until, like I said, halfway through.

But yeah, I think it goes to show that there’s no one correct way to tackle this exam.

8:34
Brian:

I think that’s exactly right.
I would totally agree with that.

Could you tell me how my materials came into play and how you use that in your studies?=

8:41
Joe:

Yes, so I had done well enough, I think, in law school,

Because I understand what my professors wanted.

I can’t think of a professor that I had in law school who didn’t post model answers.

And they always would say at some point in class.

My Con Law professor was all about the Commerce Clause.

That’s all she studied, and the big emphasis in class.

So I knew the Commerce Clause was going to be on the exam.

The bar is so different because you just don’t know.

You can’t play those games really.

Like, you can look at frequency charts and you can say,

“Okay, I guess they test this more often.”

But then you get something like July of ’24 where Mary Basick’s book says in Property, estates in land, and the rule against perpetuities (RAP) are not tested on the essay portion of the California Bar Exam.

And you get the essay too on the first day, and there’s estates in land and a RAP question.

So I was really struggling with attacking these essays and going through the sheer number and the absolute amount of issues that you test.

And I started with Themis.

I took, I don’t know, a dozen essays.

And I was missing issues, like I was a 1L again, and it really freaked me out.

So I went on Reddit.

I addressed how I can get better at issue spotting.

Someone said, you know, pointed me to ‘Make This Your Last Time’.

And the like, memorizing the Approsheets.

That was like, what made it clear.

Because it’s just like,

Okay, here’s a checklist of everything that could be covered.

I mean, make sure I’m covering my bases.

And obviously in two pages, there still might be things you’re going to miss.

But like, 99% of the time, it’ll cover everything that property is going to test you on, or everything that PR is going to test you on, or everything that you should address in a Wills and Trusts essay.

So I found that extremely helpful.

Like I said, I also started making my own outlines.

And I just found that there’s no time in the condensed.

However many weeks I was studying for July that I could do that for 12 subjects.

And so just having something that I could reference and maybe make a note here and there.

If I felt that I could phrase it differently, just to remember it or whatever, was way more helpful.

10:43
Brian:

Did you use Magicsheets by any chance?

10:47
Joe:

Yeah, so that’s what I mean, Magicsheets.

I would like look at as an outline and a reference, and then, in conjunction with the issue checklist, with the attack sheets.

The bar is so similar to law school.

But it’s also so different that that was one of those things that like really helped me bridge the gap.

11:01
Brian:

I think you were talking about Magicsheets as a reference, and they used it in conjunction with the issue checklists.

11:07
Joe:

Yeah. So I was thinking of making my own outlines.

And I tried making my own outline.

But it was such a time suck that it really prevented me from doing more essays and doing more MBE.

And so things like Magicsheets, where you have the sort of like the greatest hits of all the rules in one place was so much more helpful for retaining the important info.

And then, if I felt like there was one rule that I just really couldn’t remember that might not have been on there because it was too minute, or whatever it might have been.

I would write it in or make a flash card or something.

But I think in addition to helping me study Magicsheets, may have come most in handy as like a final reader that I had.

Because if I had brought the Themis outline books to my hotel room, taking the bar, I would have just been like sifting through them like a maniac.

But just I printed them out.

I stapled the issue checklist to the front of the Magicsheets.

And then before I went in for the essay day.

I just gave that all a read over.

I was like,

‘Okay, if this is what’s on the exam, I can do that.’

It was just, like a gut check that I had studied and that it was all there, as opposed to bringing my laptop and going through some PDF or bringing my gigantic bar prep books.

So, it was helpful in prep, and it was also helpful as an assurance that I had studied.

12:27
Brian:

I love that. It’s always flattering when people tell me they brought their sheets to the test center and they saw someone else with all the highlights all over it.

And as you know, I keep these updated, like twice or three times a year, send out these big updates.

I really like working on these and making sure that people have the best chance of passing so I’m very glad that they came in handy for you.

I am curious, though, when the rules against perpetuity came up,

How did you manage to answer that?

Like, did you remember something from the Magicsheets?

Or something from practice, or what happened there?

12:56
Joe:

Yeah, that was one of those ones where I just had to, like, chuckle to myself as I was sitting at the table, because it was so out of left field.

I don’t have Magicsheets pulled up.

I’ve tried to read my mind, but I do very distinctly remember that the estates in land are very well defined in there.

And I kind of like estates in land.

Maybe I have Stockholm Syndrome, but that was one of those things when I was studying. I was like, Oh, these are kind of interesting.

I don’t know why.

Maybe because I think it’s one of those things that, if you get it, it’s actually kind of easy, like you can just at least, like, bang.

So that was my first thought.

Was, “Okay, this question, even if I don’t answer anything else.”

I can actually talk about estates and land.

Because it is asking what she’s inheriting.

So that kind of helped calm me down a little bit.

Where I was like,

Okay, there, if I don’t know anything else, there are points to be scored.

And then it was where the Approsheets came in handy is there was a time element and there was death.

And I was like,

Oh, I think there’s a RAP issue here.

And my first thought was, maybe I don’t understand RAP.

And I’m completely wrong.

It’s not on the California essay, but I’m going to show the greater that I understand RAP, and I could be missing the issue entirely.

Thankfully, I got the question right.

I don’t know, but I did talk about RAP, and I think it’s those little things where, like, that’s where the practice comes in, and that’s where, like, knowing the materials that you have chosen to study with really well, because you get thrown a curve ball like that.
Whether it’s muscle memory or you just, like, wrote, memorize the materials you use.

I don’t know it just like, come to you and it helps, satisfactory answer.

But something in my prep, and I think it was the Approsheets had that triggered that light bulb off where I was like,

Okay, they’re talking about time.

There could be a RAP issue here.

I’m going to mention it.

14:49
Brian:

Yeah, that’s very fair.

I think it’s hard to be 100% prepare for everything.

They will always throw something one or two questions that are just like, you know what is talking about?

I haven’t prepared for this.

But, you know, preparing for the other things, keeps you more stable, so they can kind of focus on this, like, very new,

‘I don’t know how to deal with this type of question.’

So, that’s another reason that practice is so important kind of getting all your bases covered.

15:13
Joe: 

Yeah, and it’s funny, like clearly, you can still pass not knowing everything, because I tried and tried and tried and tried and tried.

And even if I could memorize the rule against perpetuities.

Literally, till the day of the bar exam, I could not remember California Civ Pro distinction and time and all that kind of stuff.

And then what do I have in the second session is a California Civ Pro essay that’s jury invalidating a juror and timing and sanctions.

And I was just like, so I tried, I tried, I tried, I tried, and tried.

To picture your layout of the distinctions between fed and Civ Pro.

Then you just have to go,

Okay, look like I’ve done enough practice essays.

If it’s 21 days and not 14 days, it’s not the end of the world.

15:56
Brian: 

Yeah, clearly, you don’t have to know everything perfectly.

You still passed, even with all these moments of mini panics.

So it just makes me wonder, what is the difference between someone.

I’m sure everyone panicked when they saw RAP, when they saw like these minute jury timing issues.

So from what I can tell, based on our conversation so far, like you again, covered your basis by going through past questions, getting things wrong, trying to remember the things you got wrong.

And that was mainly in the context of MBE questions that we talked about earlier.

But it sounds like that’s also the case with your essay preparation as well.

16:31
Joe:

Oh, yeah.

16:32
Brian:

Did you use BarEssays?

I think you mentioned it once earlier.

16:37
Joe:

Yeah, I used BarEssays.

My law school provided us with an account, which was really nice.

Yeah, I felt that there was something about getting an MBE question wrong that I didn’t have a whole lot of anxiety about.

I got it wrong,

I would say 75% of the time I was getting MBE questions wrong.

It’s because I didn’t know the rule.

So that felt okay, because then I would just write the rule down and, like,

‘Okay, now I have it somewhere.’

A lot of it was like, I never learned that.

It wasn’t in the lecture, it’s not on Brian’s outline.

Why I didn’t learn in law school?

I don’t know that rule.

So I would write it down.

And that felt good, because I was learning something the essays were way tougher.

Like, I really felt that I did well in law school

And I felt that I sort of got law school.

And then I started approaching these essays.

And in law school, issue spotting was not my not my issue.

So then I would read these model answers on Themis, and I would even go on BarEssays.com and I would be like,

Wow, I missed a lot, and that didn’t feel great.

That actually was sort of a big part of my anxiety about bar study.

But then, as I said earlier, having the Approsheets helped.

It helped me come up with a strategy.

Every time I knew the sort of subject

I just memorized the sort of way to attack these essays and these subjects.

And then once I had a better game plan.

And I wasn’t going into it blind.

Like I had a methodology, or whatever you want to call it to for each subject, then I felt it was more like those MBE questions where I was doing practice essays and I was only missing issues if I really didn’t understand the concept.

I was sort of a flag to just go back figure out, like, oh, okay, I don’t know Van Camp accounting.

But I understand how to do a Wills and Trusts essay versus just identifying one issue about whether the marriage was valid and writing thousand words on that and leaving it at that.

18:29
Brian:

So it almost sounds like you were able to compartmentalize the essays and the subjects.

All the whole body of what could be tested into issues.

The issues were kind of like modules that you either know this or you don’t.

And if you don’t, then you’d go back and look at it again.

18:45
Joe:

Yeah.

I think that’s how I frame my understanding of the law generally.

I guess I frame everything around an issue, and then group all the rules about that issue together, and then that helps me with the rest.

18:56
Brian:

Yeah.

So I think it pairs well with the Magicsheets.

And the Approsheets kind of give you that broad overview of the testable issues.

And I don’t know if you used the flow charts at all.

It’s like another way of approaching a subject, rather than just like a checklist, like if-then checklist. Did those flowcharts kind of handy at all?

19:14
Joe:

To be honest, I didn’t use them.

I’m more of a checklist type person than a visual flow sheet type person.

But I can see how they would help another student.

19:24
Brian:

Yeah, I actually added those by request of someone asking for it, or they thought a flow chart would be good.

So I was like, ‘Okay, why not? Sounds like a good idea.’

And lastly, with the performance tests, did you do any special preparation?

Did you use any resources for that?

Or how did you approach the preparation?

19:40
Joe:

So the PT, I thought, was not to come off as overly confident, but I thought it was the easiest part of the bar exam.

It’s the most lost right?

You have the rules there.

So if you know how to IRAC, you should be able to know how to do the PT pretty easily.

19:56
Brian:

Yeah, it is definitely the most learnable section.

You don’t need to memorize, like you said.

But, you know, unfortunately, a lot of students tend to neglect this section because you don’t need to know anything beforehand.

So they tend to neglect it.

And then when I see their score report, it’s like they got a 55 on it.

And if they had gotten 5 more or 10 more points, they might have passed so, and you probably did very well, you know, well enough to pass here, obviously.

So did you not practice at all?

20:20
Joe:

No, in practice.

I definitely didn’t neglect it.

I probably did 20 plus essays per subject.

Maybe I don’t need, probably more honestly. And thousands of MBE questions.

And I think I did 9 or 10 PT, maybe less.

Probably wrote out two or three fully and just outlined half dozen or so.

I think my first few.

I don’t know if this is true, but I feel like this is what may trip other people up, is you get a PT and it says you’re drafting a research memo to your senior attorney, and then they start doing it like a research memo.

No, it’s just another essay that they were basically IRAC.

But with, like, some fluff here and there.

21:06
Brian:

Yeah.

21:07
Joe:

A nice intro message dear so and so.

And I thought the July 24 PT was tough.

The facts were tough.

The cases were tough, and it said to draft a closing argument.

So that was another curveball.

None of my practice was a closing argument.

It says in the memo, you know, dear applicant, you’re to write a closing argument.

Remember, this is not a research memo.

This is in court.

You don’t need to cite the rules, or it said something like that.

21:40
Brian:

Okay.

21:41
Joe:

And so I thought to myself.

Okay, do they really want a closing argument here?

Do they just want me to do the PT like I’d been practicing the PT?

And I decided to go with doing the PT as a practice PT.

And I made sure to note that I had read the memo by writing a little intro.

And I said;

Here you go, counselor, here’s your closing memo.

I’ve included citations, just for your reference.

They should not be read off in court or something like so that.

So that the graders knew I had understood what they were asking.

But that I still didn’t want to stray from what I had been practicing and learning through.

22:20
Brian:

Okay, that’s very interesting and sneaky.

You got to do both, play both sides.

22:24
Joe:

Yeah, and I made sure to add more exclamation points and a bit more fiery court language.

But for the most part,

I stuck to what I had been doing.

22:34 
Brian:

Got it,

Now, I was reviewing a PT, a returned one from someone who took the July exam, and that applicant had included citations to the cases.

And that person actually didn’t even format it as a closing argument.

It was very much a straightforward IRAC with an essay.

And I thought it was substantively, it was not a bad essay.

It included the rules, included the facts, conclusion, the straightforward classic IRAC, but it got a 55.

I didn’t take the PT, so I don’t know exactly all the instructions and stuff.

But I’m hearing you talk about maybe it was important that you did include, or maybe even at least recognize that you are not supposed to include the citations.

Pretending you’re talking to a jury or whoever deposing argument is for.

So I guess, what I’m taking away from this is to pay attention to the instructions.

Acknowledge what they want.

23:19
Joe:

Yeah, and again, I don’t know my score, my PT could have been my worst essay.

23:23
Brian:

It could have been.

I do think that it’s pretty hard to score well without scoring well on the PT.

Because it’s a pretty heavy section.

Of course, it’s not the whole thing, but it is a multiplier of two on the written side.

So I mean, of course, it’s possible you blew the MBA out of the water.

You blew the Essays out of the water.

Maybe your PT wasn’t do so.

But I mean, whatever the case.

You clearly did something right here.

When you say you did 20 plus essays minimum per subject, that’s a good number in my eyes, a thousand of MBE questions.

Yes, 9 to 10 PT is very fair.

And speaking of those essays, how did you review those?

You mentioned Themis, model answers.

You mentioned BarEssays.

Could you explain, let’s say you just finished writing out an essay for practice.

What would you do next?

24:04
Joe:

So I didn’t write out full essays as much.

24:08
Brian:

Okay

Joe:

I did a lot more outlining, probably 60/40 maybe on a subject.

I was more confident in 70/30 writing out fully to outlining my issue was never analysis.

If I know the rule, I can really match it to the fact

My issue was always the issue, and remembering the rule that goes with the issue.

So I would outline, or I would write it out fully, if it was like Wills and Trusts.

And I really just hadn’t done it in law school.

And then if it was on Themis, I’d read the model answer on Themis.

Because they tend to give you more than is actually passing.

And I’d sort of go through it and be like,

Okay, missed that issue, highlight it, mark it down.

And I had a Excel sheet where I kept track of all the essays I was taking.

I’d be like, missed X amount of issues.

Then I’d go look at BarEssays,

and I’d look at the California model answer,

and I’d look at passing answers.

And I kind of had like, a matrix of like,

Okay, if all three of those sources had this issue and I missed it.

That’s something that I really need to focus on, right?

I took July 2007 and it was a property essay, this isn’t real, but they all hit on riparian rights, and I didn’t have any riparian rights in my essay.

Okay, circle back and do that.

I found that when I felt stuck, I would go to Mary Basick’s book.

I did all six per subject that she has, and her, like, flow chart, sort of table that lays out all the issues that was really helpful to check off that.

I had sort of gotten everything that she felt was important.

But, yeah, I’m not going to lie, when I’m getting to the end and I was still missing issues, it was, like, definitely scary.

And there were a lot of essays on BarEssays that had 55s and 50s that looked a lot more similar to mine than the 65s and 70s.

25:23
Brian

Did it end up clicking by the end?

Though, I know you panicked maybe the last couple of weeks, so you’re still missing issues.

But did you still feel like things kind of clicked toward the end,

or did you go in trusting what you’ve done so far?

26:05
Joe:

Yeah, think, I mean, it’s really, really hard to walk into the exam day like feeling that you know it.

I don’t think anyone ever is going to feel fully prepared.

But when I was studying, at least the essay started to click at the end.

And I was sort of like,

Okay, you know, I do a Civ Pro essay, or do a Con Law essay.

And you get into the flow, or at least I did.

I actually messaged you, probably on Reddit, I think, like two weeks or three weeks before the bar exam.

I was averaging in the high 60s on my MBE on UWorld, and in those last two weeks, it fell sub 60.

I was like, losing my mind, because essays started really bad.

And MBE kind of started good and stayed good, and then just took a dive at the end.

And I was like,

What am I doing, why is it?

Are they just getting harder?

Am I, like, freaking out.

And you’re like, you probably are just doing a little too much.

And maybe take a few days off of doing MBE, and I did that.

I think it was even closer to the test than two weeks, because the day before the bar, the bar is on a Tuesday and a Wednesday, so this might have been the Sunday before the bar.

I hadn’t done MBE for like, three days before that, and I did a 20/20, set, and I got 100%.

And I was like, Okay, I listened to Brian, that’s it.

No more MBE.

I’m going to go into the exam.

I’m going to take the exam.

That’s it.

So thank you first of all.

And yeah, it’s just this crazy process where you, seem to be cooking in one area and rolling on all cylinders, and then another thing falls off.

And feel like it’s the end of the world, but it’s all in there.

If you’ve been doing work, it’s all in there.

Sometimes you just need a cool off a little bit.

27:52
Brian:

Yeah, that 100% must have been a real confidence booster.

So you’re like, I don’t want to take another practice test again. I don’t want to ruin this. (Laughs)

So this is a very good story.

I think for a lot of repeaters to listen to.

I mean, I’m going to be extracting lessons from it so that it’s more easier to consume.

A lot of this really parallels what I keep telling people to do.

And I guess if you pull it down, it’s actually pretty simple.

It’s not easy by any means.

Joe:

Oh, not at all.

Brian:

But it’s, simply, if you know what to do, is simple.

It’s just that people don’t really kind of teach you this in law school or Themis.

But once you know what to do,

it kind of starts clicking, and you start getting things right.

And then it’s just, it’s a very tedious process.

Did you have any ups and downs in terms of, I know you mentioned anxiety a couple times.

So you were anxious.

Did you ever feel like you just wanted to quit?

You were just feeling the dread of, like, the next day of studying.

Or did you feel tired and unmotivated?

Or maybe even the opposite, you felt elated that you’re you get to do this,

and I don’t know.

How did you feel throughout the process?

28:56
Joe:

I mean, it’s a lot.

There were a lot of days where I was wondering if it was all worth it.

And like, you know, you’re taking it in the summertime, and you’re looking on Instagram, and everyone’s at the beach.

And I live in Santa Monica, and so like I’m looking out my window and it’s sunny and wishing I wasn’t looking at negligence outlines.

But yeah, that’s tough.

I did maintain a schedule.

I had one day off a week.

I made it a priority to spend time with my wife.

We had sort of like a dinner date day once a week.

And then I would see her or her and friends on Fridays and not do any bar prep from Friday night to Saturday night.

I think that helped keep my sanity a lot.

And it also shows that it’s the same thing they say in law school, it’s just condensed.

Where you don’t actually have to be in the library for 10 hours a day in law school to do well.

You can have weekends, and you can go to the movies on whatever.

I think the same is true for bar studying.

But like, law school is three years, bar studying is 12 weeks.

So like, instead of taking the weekend off, probably just take a day a week, but you still can.

There’s no reason to feel bad for going to the movies.

You’re not going to forget the rule against perpetuities because what happened now and had dinner.

So that really helped.

At the beginning, it seems really daunting.

Towards the middle, you start getting into it, and it starts to actually feel good.

There are times like where you get 20 questions correct, or you just nail an essay and you like, look at it.

And you’re like, I wrote them as model answer just now,

That all feels really good.

But it’s such a roller coaster that I’m being completely honest, nothing felt good. (Laughs)

30:30
Brian:

No, I’m sure if we speak about this process intellectually, it makes sense.

Do some practice questions, you know, check the answers.

But I think psychologically, it can take a toll for some people.

Like for me, my first time around.

I just read the outlines, watch the lectures, filled in the notes.

It feels good, because you’re not actually getting anything wrong at that point.

You’re just absorbing information.

Oh, it makes sense. It looks familiar.

But then, like, two weeks before the exam, or on the exam itself, you don’t know what you don’t know.

And then you get your scores back, and it’s like,

Well, I got to figure this part thing out now.

But I mean, it sounds like you were a lot more conscious than I was the first time around.

31:03
Joe:

Because you suffered through it the first time, and I read your blog.

31:07
Brian
(Laughs) Yeah, that is why what I am here to do.

 I’m so happy that you came across my resources, and that’s kind of part of the things that keep me going too.

It’s no just about selling products or whatever.

The emails that I write, the articles that I put up and the resources I put together.

So thank you for stopping by and putting to practice what I suggest.

And you get to spend your holidays without stressing about RAP.

And did you have any other final comments or advice for people?

31:36
Joe:
That everyone, it’s a miserable process for everyone, but it very doable.

I’m not some like special person who knew what I was getting into beforehand, and that if I can do it, anyone can do it.

You need support and you need grit, but it’s really doable.

Like you said, it’s not easy, but doable.

31:50
Brian:
It is simple, but not easy.

Joe:

Yeah, exactly.

31:56
Brian

I do believe that (if you graduated from law school) if you can graduate from law school, I think you can do this.

You kind of have the basic foundational skills to be able to absorb lots of information.

I mean, it does sound like a platitude like, “If I can do it and you can do it.”

But I think it’s true.

I think the thing that you did differently from a lot of people, is that you were really putting your nose to the to the grindstone.

You grinded out 20 plus essays, even though you outlined some of it.

I think that’s actually a pretty good way to focus on what matters in the essays, like the issues and rules.

I call that essay cooking, which is just focusing on the issues and rules.

That takes 15 minutes, and then you take another 15-20 minutes to check the sample answers, model answers.

Because, like you said, if you know those issues and rules and the rest of it is just going to blow out.

I think you did the right thing, and then it turned out well.

So I hope people can follow along to what you did.

Find their own success as well.

So thank you again.

If you want to stay in touch, I’m always open via email.

So yeah, I hope you have a great week, and holidays, and you get to enjoy it, and I’m sure you’ve already celebrated a lot enjoy the rest of your career.

And yeah, best of luck with everything.

33:00
Joe:

Thank you so much, Brian.

Thank you for the call and for all your materials and guidance and encouragement throughout the process.

I again, not a platitude.

I really could not have done this without you personally.

So I’m of course happy to chat and give it back and wishing you the best of luck as you gear up for helping everyone in February.

33:18
Brian:

Alright. Thanks so much. It was my pleasure.

Take care.

Bye.